Curse

Buns United · Mar 18, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Ok, it's been said, done and tried way too many times. The only reason you'd run LF is to maximize your amount of damage packets. Which can then be increased by armor ignoring +dmg buffs. (SoH, orders etc. etc.)

So there I was, lounging in my chair and theorycrafting a bit about the Dervish update when it struck me. This will probably never be run because people can actually use 7 heroes so GW has become a singleplayer game for which you need a working connection (/QQ.) I came up with a build to maximise the actual amount of damage packages, which you can then increase with melee damage buffs and more importantly (if you're playing with other people, which you should if you intend to run this,) EBSoH and/or GDW, the second because you'd be knocklocking enemies with auto attacks. It's debatable because a fast recharge Splinter Weapon or even 2 copies of that would probably make you own adjacent foes in mere seconds.

Attributes:
Critical Strikes 11+1+1
Dagger Mastery 11+1
Wind Prayers (wtf?!) 8

Skills:
Locust's Fury [E]
Critical Agility [PvE]
Critical Eye
Dodge This! [PvE]
Whirling Charge
Lyssa's Haste
Aura of Holy Might [PvE]
[Optional] Test of Faith if playing without GDW to shutdown casters, if you are playing with GDW it's still good for Ench removal, Signet of Mystic Speed comes to mind too when playing in enchant-strip heavy areas... otherwise res sig or w/e

And there you have it, LF+CA is enough to actually have a core Locust's Fury build. But this is about maximizing damage packages (important: without delaying your auto-attacks.) And to just look cool swinging your butter knifes around while shouting stuff.

So has LF finally become effective? Probably not. But atleast it'd be something different from letting your heroes do all the work for you. *cough* Some food for thought is using a Paragon's Finales with this build, because every 2 seconds a shout would end on you if you spam DT! on recharge, which can be further increased by the use of Dark Fury and the like.
Remember kids; macro DT to your scrollbar unless you want to either play sub-optimal with a sub-optimal build, or if you want spastic fingers.

Criticism is welcome, constructive or not. Considering it's not quite the most serious build...

FoxBat · Mar 18, 2011, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I'd try to fit in more enchants if you can, AoE 25 often does more than the ~16 single target dodge... interesting idea anyway.

Deadfalk · Mar 18, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Sounds interesting, very interesting actually...

Buns United · Mar 18, 2011, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I'd try to fit in more enchants if you can, AoE 25 often does more than the ~16 single target dodge... interesting idea anyway.

Well, the idea with Dodge This is that you get free +damage on your auto attacks, for the high cost of... nothing! It costs adrenaline and your only other adrenal skill is in the optionals (and has a recharge!) Now with LF you're getting in auto-attacks like crazy, if you pack any skill to further boost adrenal gain (like Dark Fury, as suggested.) or if you're in an area where foes use Infuriating Heat that's +16...20 damage every 2 hits. Which is about every second. A Dervish spamming flash enchantments on recharge can't use them more then once per second. So you're looking at a difference of 5 dps assuming max rank. Except DT makes you unblockable half the time as long as you can get hits in and isn't AoE. It's counterproductive with the anti-block part but it's the best adrenaline dump you can have.

The big plus of AoHM is that with Whirling Charge you get 2 more damage packages. These can be further increased by EBSoH. Then again, LF has always been all about abusing all the buffs you can get.

And just stating the obvious, with only 8 skill slots I'm afraid you can't have the best of both worlds. But atleast you can try!

awry · Mar 18, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

why dodge this over sy!? some small amount of dmg is not worth the benefits of save yourselves. If there's any benefit to running lf over db spam, it's that you get more hits and thus more chances to sy spam. That having been said, the derv secondary doesn't look to be too effective. I'm sure crit strikes will provide the necessary energy, but the recharge is still too high for aohm to be effective.
whirling charge is just... unnecessary with ca, you can get the speed boost from the plethora of cheap consumables or just bring dash/better run skills.

The benefit of LF compared to db spam is
-You free your bar of all the chains
-You got more room for utility
-You get more hits thus more adrenaline and more dmg packets
-You can c space and rest your fingers.

reason #4 is the main reason why i run lf sometimes, my fingers are tired and i'm lazy as hell.

Chthon · Mar 18, 2011, 11:57 PM // 23:57

We've been over this before. (Start at post 50. If you want a laugh, read the comments by Tenebrae. (Yes, this is the imfamous "2 x 1.8 = 6" thread.)) If you do the math you'll discover that LF at 33%IAS produces less packets/time than JS+FF+DB. Sorry, LF is strictly inferior.

awry · Mar 19, 2011, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

We've been over this before. (Start at post 50. If you want a laugh, read the comments by Tenebrae. (Yes, this is the imfamous "2 x 1.8 = 6" thread.)) If you do the math you'll discover that LF at 33%IAS produces less packets/time than JS+FF+DB. Sorry, LF is strictly inferior.

Huh that's interesting, really someone should make a sticky thread of calculation links. The one thing i did notice is that the calculation doesn't take into account is the possibility of player input lag/mistakes/queue errors in chain and small e issues that might prevent chains from transitioning smoothly each time. Anyways I'll stick to my advocation of LF as an acceptable sub for lazy players who don't want to break their 123 keys and develop carpal tunnel.

Chthon · Mar 20, 2011, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

Huh that's interesting, really someone should make a sticky thread of calculation links. The one thing i did notice is that the calculation doesn't take into account is the possibility of player input lag/mistakes/queue errors in chain and small e issues that might prevent chains from transitioning smoothly each time. Anyways I'll stick to my advocation of LF as an acceptable sub for lazy players who don't want to break their 123 keys and develop carpal tunnel.

Sigh....

Alright, here's the math again:

Assume all sins are running 14 dagger, 13 crit strikes, 33%IAS.
Further assume that the double strike delay is not reduced by IAS. (It's too small for anyone to test effectively.)

Sin #1: LS
auto1 - (0.2 * 0.8911) + (0.8 * (0.8911 + 0.125)) - 80% chance of double strike.

That's 1.8 hits over 0.9911 sec for 1.81616386 hits/sec or 0.550611111 sec/hit.

Sin #2: JS+FF+DB, Kills target on first DB.

JS+FF+DB chain looks like this:
JS - 0.335
FF - 0.335
DB - 0.8911 + 0.125 double strike delay

So we get 4 hits in 1.6861 sec for an effective attack speed of 2.37233853 hits/sec or 0.421525 sec/hit.

Now multiply the difference in sec/hit across the entire JS+FF+DB chain to determine how far off optimal you'd need to be w/ the chain for LF to catch up.
(0.550611111 - 0.421525) * 4 = 0.516344444 or about 1/2 of a sec.

That is far too big an error margin to consider LF really close, even for a lazy man.

Sin #3: JS+FF+DB+auto+auto, needs to repeat chain an arbitrary number of times.
JS+FF+DB+auto+auto chain looks like this:
JS - 0.335
FF - 0.335
DB - 0.8911 + 0.125 double strike delay
auto1 - (0.7 * 0.8911) + (0.3 * (0.8911 + 0.125)) - 30% chance of double strike
auto2 - (0.7 * 0.8911) + (0.3 * (0.8911 + 0.125)) - 30% chance of double strike
(Notes on the autos:
1. They can go anywhere in the chain.
2. A super-efficient user might cancel the second auto to start the next Fox Fangs sooner. But you're proposing a lazy player, so we'll assume this never happens.)

So we get 6.6 hits in 3.5433 sec for an effective attack speed of 1.86267039 hits/sec or 0.536863636 sec/hit.

Now multiply the difference in sec/hit across the entire JS+FF+DB+auto+auto chain to see how big an error is needed for LF to catch up.
(0.550611111 - 0.536863636) * 6.6 = 0.090733335 or about 1/10 of a sec.

That one is close enough that LF is comparable if you can force yourself to forget about the +119 dmg and +86 AoE on the attack skills.

Sin #4: JS+FF+DB+MS+DB, DB is recharged instantly, Kills target on second DB
JS+FF+DB+MS+DB chain looks like this:
JS - 0.335
FF - 0.335
DB - 0.8911 + 0.125 double strike delay
MS - 0.8911
DB - 0.8911 + 0.125 double strike delay

So we get 7 hits in 3.5933 sec for an effective attack speed of 1.94807002 hits/sec or 0.513328571 sec/hit.

Now multiply the difference in sec/hit across the entire JS+FF+DB+MS+DB chain to see how big an error is needed for LF to catch up.
(0.550611111 - 0.513328571) * 7 = 0.26097778 or about 1/4 of a sec.

That probably would be close enough to consider an acceptable error margin if both options did the same damage. But they don't; the JS+FF+DB+MS+DB does +238 more single target damage and 172 more AoE damage in addition to being 1/4 sec faster at delivering 7 hits.

Sin #5 through infinity: JS+FF+DB+MS+DB+auto, arbitrarily large number of cycles required to kill target

2+(4*cycles) hits over 0.67 + (2.8358 * cycles) seconds.

With enough cycles, that eventually converges towards a significantly lower rate of hit/sec than LF, but not low enough to counteract the huge DPS difference coming off DB.

------

Sum:
LF delivers 4 hits a half second slower than JS+FF+DB, and does a lot less damage.
LF delivers the same number of hits as JS+FF+DB+auto+auto only marginally slower, but does a lot less damage.
LF delivers 7 hits a quarter second slower than JS+FF+DB+MS+DB, and does tremendously less damage.
Given enough cycles, LF delivers the same number of hits faster than (JS+FF+)DB+MS+auto, but still does less damage.

So, yep, LF is still junk.

(It's been said that maybe it could be decent for heroes given their inability to chain well, but I've never seen a sin hero bar that I car for, LF or otherwise.)

Beomagi · Mar 21, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Well, you're right - the db spam would produce more attacks, but it is fun to see something being tried these days. We can regard an elite skill as useless and leave it to rot, or attempt to figure out how we can make it workable and have a little fun

The advantage he has of course is all the extra energy. I'm not denying that you're getting more attacks, bleeding, and about 110 armor ignoring damage every 3.5 seconds or so with db spam.

So the question is how can you use all this energy to fuel flash enchantments or shouts and pop flash enchantments without slowing down?

Again - no, I don't see this comparing favorably to db spam.

From OP
Dodge This! [PvE]
Whirling Charge
Lyssa's Haste
Aura of Holy Might [PvE]

Lyssa's haste is good - but it's only benefiting one skill. Perhaps add another?

Whirling Charge recharges in 4 seconds.
37 cold damage + lets say a reasonable 8 in kurzick/luxon for 23 damage from aura of holy might.

Grenth's aura- a possibility? would give you a minimum against those really high armor targets.

Rending aura - another 4 second on recharge with lyssa's haste. Low damage - 26 damage at 8 wind, but you'll get cracked armor on them, and if you use knockdown on your optional, you'll be able to strip enchantments. To remove it, you'll need another skill of course. Cracked armor would mostly benefit the team, and stripping benefits everyone.. (please quote in context...)

Chthon · Mar 21, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beomagi

Well, you're right - the db spam would produce more attacks, but it is fun to see something being tried these days. We can regard an elite skill as useless and leave it to rot, or attempt to figure out how we can make it workable and have a little fun

It's not a matter of "oh we just need to be a little more creative and daring and we can find a home for this poor misunderstood skill (and even make a musical about it!)." It's a matter of LF simply sucking in every respect in an objective sense.

Quote:

So the question is how can you use all this energy to fuel flash enchantments

If you want flash enchant spam, crit strikes + crit eye + wotm is enough to fuel Pious spam, with a scythe.

Quote:

Grenth's aura- a possibility?

LF requires daggers; GA requires a scythe; so I'd say that it is not a possibility.

Quote:

Cracked armor

Is quite if you're using a scythe. It's borderline useless with daggers. (And while there are situations where cracked armor on a character who has no use for it can be a useful part of a team build, as a melee you are occupying one of the positions in a team build that is supposed to take advantage of the cracked armor.)

If you really want to try to make something out of LF and dervish stuff, you'll probably want to focus on the handful of "melee attacks" in scythe mastery. See if you can possibly assemble some combination of AoHM triggers and melee attacks that can out-DPS DB spam. Also, remember that you need to not only match DB spam, but also exceed it by enough to justify giving up SY! from the warrior secondary.

Kunder · Mar 23, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Its sad that death blossom is so ridiculously overpowered that there is basically no other option. Assassins get Jagged/Fox/DB in shing jea and never need anything else on their skill bar throughout the whole game except for Critical Agility from Nightfall. Its also the only build I can think of that is exceedingly powerful yet doesn't even want nor need an elite skill.

Chthon · Mar 24, 2011, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Its sad that death blossom is so ridiculously overpowered that there is basically no other option. Assassins get Jagged/Fox/DB in shing jea and never need anything else on their skill bar throughout the whole game except for Critical Agility from Nightfall. Its also the only build I can think of that is exceedingly powerful yet doesn't even want nor need an elite skill.

Like Car said elsewhere, the only good thing about JS+FF is the speed. They get you to your dual in 1sec and recharge in 3sec. If Palm Strike had a 3sec recharge, I'd probably run that and use the extra space for another dual attack. If GPS had a 4 sec recharge, I'd probably run that, MS, and use the extra space for another dual attack. DB is no doubt the best dual attack, but not so much better that I'd pass up the chance to run two and pick which to use situationally.

Winterclaw · Mar 25, 2011, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Sum:
LF delivers 4 hits a half second slower than JS+FF+DB, and does a lot less damage.
LF delivers the same number of hits as JS+FF+DB+auto+auto only marginally slower, but does a lot less damage.
LF delivers 7 hits a quarter second slower than JS+FF+DB+MS+DB, and does tremendously less damage.
Given enough cycles, LF delivers the same number of hits faster than (JS+FF+)DB+MS+auto, but still does less damage.

So, yep, LF is still junk.

(It's been said that maybe it could be decent for heroes given their inability to chain well, but I've never seen a sin hero bar that I car for, LF or otherwise.)

1. You are assuming your attack skills always hit. One blind, block, etc. at the wrong moment throws you off. Plus when an enemy dies you've got to start all over again.
2. Attack skills cost energy. You luck out and don't get a crit when you hoped and it throws off your rhythm. Or your foe is immune to crits and it's tough luck. Or you face a foe that is trying his hardest to keep you e-denied. Note these assumptions are based on bad luck, etc. but I wouldn't assume a perfect scenario all the time.
3. Attack skills can be disabled. Your DB gets diverted and your combo is gone.
4. It takes 4 skills to use a MS+DB chain, so while more powerful on its own, it takes up 3 more skills than LF by itself. So yes LF is weaker, but it also takes up 3 less slots.

I use MS+DB on my sassi and my hero sassis. However people can get bored of the same old thing all the time and want to try out other skills.

Chthon · Mar 25, 2011, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

1. You are assuming your attack skills always hit. One blind, block, etc. at the wrong moment throws you off. Plus when an enemy dies you've got to start all over again.
2. Attack skills cost energy. You luck out and don't get a crit when you hoped and it throws off your rhythm. Or your foe is immune to crits and it's tough luck. Or you face a foe that is trying his hardest to keep you e-denied. Note these assumptions are based on bad luck, etc. but I wouldn't assume a perfect scenario all the time.
3. Attack skills can be disabled. Your DB gets diverted and your combo is gone.

We NEED some kind of working model. Otherwise any kind of comparisons between skills or builds devolves into subjective dreck. You've basically got 3 methodological options: (a) decide something works rarely enough that you can assume it never works and treat the times it does work as trivial exceptions; (b) decided that something works reliably enough that you can assume it always works and treat the times it doesn't work as trivial exceptions; or (c) decide that the chance of something not working really does have a non-trivial effect on the average outcome and develop a working model of how often that happens so you can properly account for it.

All of the things you bring up I treat as so rare that they can be ignored as trivial. What proportion of monsters have effective melee hate (especially in light of the new AScan), diversion, effective e-denial, or crit immunity?

Quote:

4. It takes 4 skills to use a MS+DB chain, so while more powerful on its own, it takes up 3 more skills than LF by itself. So yes LF is weaker, but it also takes up 3 less slots.

OK, now, what can you do with those 3 free slots and a pair of daggers that has a better effect than the damage from JS+FF+DB?

awry · Mar 26, 2011, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Well it's not like, you can't take death blossom when you have LF with you. People take way of the assassin only for the + chance to critical cause the attack speed boost is inferior to critical agility. You could take LF if you find yourself wanting to ds more when not using attack skills if you got a pair of zealous daggers and want some quick energy.

Winterclaw · Mar 27, 2011, 03:50 AM // 03:50

If I were using locust fury, I'd probably would not use attack skill much at all. Chthon, if I knew the answer to that, I'd probably wouldn't run MS+DB myself.

Chthon · Mar 27, 2011, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Chthon, if I knew the answer to that, I'd probably wouldn't run MS+DB myself.

It was a rhetorical question. There is no answer.

ruk1a · Jun 17, 2011, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Dammit OP how dare you try and be original and/or have fun.
You WILL use DB spam, and you WILL like it.

Na... I don't get why every sin is bent on using one and only one build for the rest of time. It DOES get boring, you know?

It's not like we couldn't just run around with 8 empty skill slots and still completely faceroll this game so.. by all means, use whatever the hell you want.

INB4 nerd rage.

Buns United · Jun 19, 2011, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruk1a

Dammit OP how dare you try and be original and/or have fun.
You WILL use DB spam, and you WILL like it.

Na... I don't get why every sin is bent on using one and only one build for the rest of time. It DOES get boring, you know?

It's not like we couldn't just run around with 8 empty skill slots and still completely faceroll this game so.. by all means, use whatever the hell you want.

INB4 nerd rage.

You're right about DB spam getting boring, but to be honest the most fun I've had with Guild Wars over the last year or so was pretty much theorycrafting.

Always did try to make original builds work, guess that's to each his own I suppose.

But this build in question was only a concept, I'm afraid I pretty much quit Guild Wars altogether. Only to sometimes make up something original for a friend who's recently started playing. So while sub-par, I made this knowingly just to make it look cool. And because he sure knows how to mash up his keyboard, but a lead-offhand-dual chain is too much for him.

Although that's somewhat understandable with the connection around here.

Shame anything works nowadays though, creating original builds was half the fun of this game. IMO. (You should see some of the ridiculous builds I made/tested with my guild around GW:F.) Although those were more PvP-oriented. Then again, trying to get people together to try something new in this years old rusty META seems impossible. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I just do miss being able to actually test stuff, instead of just theorycraft.

-Makai- · Jul 01, 2011, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruk1a

Dammit OP how dare you try and be original and/or have fun.
You WILL use DB spam, and you WILL like it.

Na... I don't get why every sin is bent on using one and only one build for the rest of time. It DOES get boring, you know?

It's not like we couldn't just run around with 8 empty skill slots and still completely faceroll this game so.. by all means, use whatever the hell you want.

INB4 nerd rage.

Agreed wholeheartedly. The OP's got an a very interesting idea here...will test it out later.